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tronic

Member

Registered: 2010-06-08

Game instructor hints problem possible fix

UNRELATED GAME INSTRUCTOR MESSAGES
Due to the fact that we can't create customized game instructor messages to guide the players, we had to rely on default options provided with the game. This is why some of the hints may sometime seem a bit unrelated, like when it talked about closing the floodgate to make a bridge when it's actually a real bridge.
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I recall playing a campaign which its author successfully created custom hints using sprites. You might want to take a look at his work and even ask him for help! His sprites were looking exactly as regular game_event_proxy but with proper indication.

http://www.l4dmaps.com/details.php?file=896

I've also noticed that when I activated the flare crescendo event, it said "Zoey has alerted the horde" when in fact I was playing Bill!
In my second playthrough, same thing happened: I was Francis and it said "Bill has alerted the horde"

When I was looking down one of the windows next to the ladder leading to the very top of the Manor, I could see helicopter through the material:

One last thing maybe, just nit picking... In the Manor, all the bordered windows look the same. Might want to modify some planks here and there just to make the copy/paste less obvious

Screenshot of one of the many rooms using the same bordered window template:

Last edited by tronic (2010-06-08 17:45:29)

NykO18

Administrator

From: Montréal, QC

Registered: 2010-05-13

Website

Re: Game instructor hints problem possible fix

I recall playing a campaign which its author successfully created custom hints using sprites. You might want to take a look at his work and even ask him for help! His sprites were looking exactly as regular game_event_proxy but with proper indication.

We don't want to do that, people should be allowed to play without hints if they want to. Plus, it doesn't react the same way, it doesn't pop up on the players screen, it doesn't follow the players camera movements and it doesn't properly rotate around the origin of the hint. Definitely too cheap.

I've also noticed that when I activated the flare crescendo event, it said "Zoey has alerted the horde" when in fact I was playing Bill!
In my second playthrough, same thing happened: I was Francis and it said "Bill has alerted the horde"

This is also in the "things we won't be able to or can't fix" topic.

When I was looking down one of the windows next to the ladder leading to the very top of the Manor, I could see helicopter through the material:

Yep, we know, there's something wrong with Valve's helicopter's material and the way the engine renders two translucent models in front of each other.

One last thing maybe, just nit picking... In the Manor, all the bordered windows look the same. Might want to modify some planks here and there just to make the copy/paste less obvious

This is a single prop and there's no other.
We could make more, but we won't because it's not worth it and it would also add some weight to the campaign and we don't want this to happen, whatever the weight.

tronic

Member

Registered: 2010-06-08

Re: Game instructor hints problem possible fix

I recall playing a campaign which its author successfully created custom hints using sprites. You might want to take a look at his work and even ask him for help! His sprites were looking exactly as regular game_event_proxy but with proper indication.

We don't want to do that, people should be allowed to play without hints if they want to. Plus, it doesn't react the same way, it doesn't pop up on the players screen, it doesn't follow the players camera movements and it doesn't properly rotate around the origin of the hint. Definitely too cheap.

Well non-accurate hints is worse than anything + who the hell disable hints?  No one does that. Sprites do turn around the origin and you can tweak the distance from which you want them to fade in/out. Whatever you say, it is not as cheap as you say and would fix the things you mention aren't possible to fix.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_6KbMJanRs

Recorded this, hope it convinces you.

Why don't you just display "the horde is coming" like every regular crescendo events for the flare event?

About the helicopter, I really don't understand. Just place solid brush behind that window and problem is fixed? Why is the material there translucent.. we can't see through anyway? Just fix it, it look silly. You can fix this

I'm trying to be helpful here..

I decompiled some of your maps(hope you don't mind) to see why the hell it is lagging in some areas. First map has 256 units of wasted space below ground level all around the map and lots of wasted space above the player's head. As you know, hammer is not made for such big open spaces, maybe optimize that if possible?

3rd map props have no fade in/out distances. I must say I'm impressed by the brushwork and the use of displacement to create arches and other complex geometry.

I was curious about the lumberyard crescendo event. Very interesting to see the work behind it.

Last edited by tronic (2010-06-08 19:51:49)

NykO18

Administrator

From: Montréal, QC

Registered: 2010-05-13

Website

Re: Game instructor hints problem possible fix

Well non-accurate hints is worse than anything + who the hell disable hints?

Me for example, and everyone I know then.
Hints are just ridiculous, it makes no sense to have them activated at all time to me.

Sprites do turn around the origin and you can tweak the distance from which you want them to fade in/out.

Sprites do turn around THEIR origin and not the subject's origin. and they don't stay on the edge of the screen, and they don't follow camera movement, etc, etc, etc. I already said all this in my previous post.
Tweaking the distance isn't gonna make them disappear for people who don't want to see them.

Whatever you say, it is not as cheap as you say and would fix the things you mention aren't possible to fix.

This is cheap, just like the people who ask us to include the lines Valve recorded for us even if there's no localization or subtitles "who cares?". Still me. This is our work, we don't want it to be cheap. I largely prefer a message a little awkward that is still very easy to understand than some ugly sprites flying in the air when I don't even want to see them.

Why don't you just display "the horde is coming" like every regular crescendo events for the flare event?

Sounds clever, why didn't I thought about it before? Oh yeah, because putting "the horde is coming" on the button that's gonna attract the horde before you even press it isn't really clever. I'd prefer to see "close the floodgate to make a bridge" than some random non-sense.

About the helicopter, I really don't understand. Just place solid brush behind that window and problem is fixed? Why is the material there translucent.. we can't see through anyway? Just fix it, it look silly. You can fix this

If you really don't understand, then let people who understand it handle it.
I told you it was a problem with Valve's helicopter's textures and the way the engine handle translucent materials, you have no idea how widespread this problem is, nor how to fix it (neither do we). There is exactly the same problem with every grass root and fence in the campaign and on Left 4 Dead. This is just smaller, so you don't really notice it, but it's there.

I'm trying to be helpful here..

Of course you're trying, that doesn't mean we like your ideas and the way you think we should do things. Trying to help is a thing, claiming you know better is another, which leads us to the next point.

First map has 256 units of wasted space below ground level all around the map and lots of wasted space above the player's head. As you know, hammer is not made for such big open spaces, maybe optimize that if possible?

That comment makes me think you really don't know how the engine works and what's making the framerate drop. This is entirely unrelated to what you just said, big empty spaces are far from draining framerate and as long as you deal with them beforehand when you optimize, there's no need to worry about them. Check the budget panel next time you want to see what's going on and you'll notice that model rendering is taking the lead in the framerate drop war.

3rd map props have no fade in/out distances.

That's useless, this map doesn't need it, visleaves disappear way before you have to worry about prop fade in/out distance (which is only suited for outdoor environments since it can do more harm than good).

So please, I'm trying to stay positive here, but don't act like you have some kind of mastering of things when you don't. There's a few thing I agree with but we can't fix them, and there's a few things that are simply wrong. I can't let you think we're not happy to have your help, but please try to stay modest. This is our project, and when I say we're not going to use some ugly sprites to poorly emulate a feature that's already working right now, I mean it. There's no need to keep it going forever.

tronic

Member

Registered: 2010-06-08

Re: Game instructor hints problem possible fix

2.67 core2duo
Geforce 8800 gts
6 gigs ram

I never had 1 fps drop in any Valve maps. Average fps in lost in the wood: 30 fps with peaks at 45. About 15 fps average in the last stretch of "The Underground Way" Same thing with Lighthouse and couple of spots in Lumberyard

If that is acceptable for your team and claim this is optimized, I don't know what to say!

You can't blame Valve on this one now because it is a design/layout problem but I'm sure you would like to

Hints are cheap? They are another element that guide help guide the player. Looks like guiding the player is not in your top priorities. Remember that your opinion is and will remain corrupted. You know everything about your map, the general audience don't. And I never heard of anyone who disabled the hint systems. If a little popping icon annoys you that much... I will stop here.

I'm modest. I'm not the one who can't accept criticism.

Campaign is fun and even if I disagree with your opinion/attitude, I will still recommend it to my friends.

CosmicD

Member

Registered: 2010-05-23

Re: Game instructor hints problem possible fix

you never can do good for everyone, and actually this problem all boils down on the fact that the instructor can't be plugged with custom stuff and won't behave the same way. That is why people will have to come up with hints. Some want their hand held all the time, some don't want it.

In the development version of dead before dawn we are goign to have hints on all major custom events. We also were going to implement an "inside the world" feature to turn them off, but because of the faked nature of the hints they would be off for everyone so people could grief eachother.

in DBD people were also confused, didn't know where to go, partially because some maps wern't thought out to be semi linear yet, or the events were a bit unclear. We solve this now with visual clues , more linearity and lots of director hints. Honestly they don't bother me. We show the yellow triangle from very far, and pop up the hint when people are close to the event and know what to do. It also gives the event that is going to come meaning because we're doing pretty "out of the box" stuff", even in the new version. So it "is" needed imo. I just wish valve would make the instructor completely pluggable so we just had to add scripts and entities that go with the scripts which sill cancel themself after the player behave well, just like the normal instructor.

Last edited by CosmicD (2010-06-08 21:18:53)

NykO18

Administrator

From: Montréal, QC

Registered: 2010-05-13

Website

Re: Game instructor hints problem possible fix

Hints are cheap? They are another element that guide help guide the player. Looks like guiding the player is not in your top priorities. Remember that your opinion is and will remain corrupted. You know everything about your map, the general audience don't. And I never heard of anyone who disabled the hint systems. If a little popping icon annoys you that much... I will stop here.

You are so stubborn that you can't even accept the fact that a lot of players are playing without the hints activated. That amaze me in fact. I can't even think of how it could go worse, maybe you should call for jihad over people who play without these hints? Or maybe just stalk them and kill them in their sleep, I don't know. I'm playing without these hints since Left 4 Dead came out. Just like all my friends do and just like all the members of the team do and we enjoy it much better this way. It you can't stand it, you obviously need help.

I'm modest. I'm not the one who can't accept criticism.

Yeah right, because it's me who keep on being stubborn and can't accept the fact that my ideas can't please everyone. It's me who keep on putting this sprite thing on the table since the beginning because I can't understand that my idea is not the one the creators of this campaign want to apply. Right. Of course. I don't see what replacing the current hints with ugly sprites is a criticism at all, you're giving out your opinion about what we should do according to you, and we don't want to do it this way... that's all.

Now this thread as officially derailed.
This is crazy, how come we can't even tell we're not okay with you, without you blasting everything and going off the chart. If you can't understand that your ideas might not be the ones we want to apply to our work, then don't bother posting. It's just annoying us and you're wasting our time. Give us feedback, tell us how we could do things better and let us decide if we want to follow your advice goddammit, that's no friggin' contract were we have to listen to everyone and apply everything as is without thinking about it ourselves.

Campaign is fun and even if I disagree with your opinion/attitude, I will still recommend it to my friends.

I can understand that you disagree with my opinion because I disagree with yours. Between two civilized people, that wouldn't be such a big deal because I can understand why you disagree with our choices, you just don't know why we did things this way because you don't have the whole picture in mind. Now I don't see what my attitude has something to do about all this. I was being pretty polite and understanding until you started to act like a smartass and talk sarcastically. When people start to act this way, I just don't care anymore about their opinions because I know I can't trust them anymore. I'm in contact with several people via e-mail who keep on sending feedback, opinions and ideas and none of them has ever been as stubborn as you nor has considered I was being a douche for not agreeing with everything they say. If you want to settle this, stop derailing this thread and talk to me in private.